Copedent thoughts

[Mike Preuss]

Hi gang!

This is the copedent I have been using for the last 8 months. It suits me well and I really like it, especially my pedal 4. I am curious if there is a simple way to get the last piece of the puzzle figured out.

I'm talking of course about the B6 pedal 8, B-C. Is there any change I can simply add it onto that wouldn't undercut its utility? Or is it necessary to add a pedal? If so, where should the pedal be located?

I am not a C6 player, and don't know if what I am doing is a fools errand, but I like the way this copedent plays and all the music I get from it. Any input from those who know better would be much appreciated.

[Mike Preuss]

Typo on the B6 chart. The knee lever lowers to Bb not B

[Bill McCloskey]

I'm completely confused about what you are asking. What are you trying to achieve?

[Robert Miller]

Are you asking how to extract a Boo wah pedal from the quasi-E9th/B6th Setup on the bottom drawing without adding a pedal?

If that's your question, I would tend to say there isn't an elegant solution, assuming you're not into chords that rub hard at the expense of some very idiomatic 6th neck changes on the back neck. (I assume you're talking about piggy backing with another change.) That A7#9 (Gb#9 in your case) is a fairly unique construction. It's not diatonic with the open tuning (VI7#9), so it's a prickly blend with its neighbors.

Of course Sonny Sharrock tuned his guitar to all the same pitch and played slide with it in the 70s, so, your palate and mileage may vary. I'm taking the Inigo Montoya approach.

If that wasn't your question, I'm interested and curious to understand what your goal is.

[Mike Preuss]

Some background:
Over the years my copedent has drifted from a standard E9.

The first copedent change was replacing the typical RKL with string 5 B-Bb.
Then added a zero pedal string 6 G#-A#.
Then removed C pedal, and put string 4 E-F# on LKV.
Then added a fourth pedal string 7 F#-F

It has been a blast to play, and works perfectly for me. I thought it might be cool to add a C note, either from string 9 or 10. I thought maybe I could put it on RKR, so that lever would raise string 10 to C, drop string 9 to C#, drop string 2 to D. Maybe that wouldn't interfere too much. When using RKR I rarely use string 10.

Can I simply add that quasi C6 p8 change (string 10 B-C) to RKR, have my cake and eat it too?

Or would it be better to install an additional new pedal for that change?

If I install an additional pedal to raise string 10 to C, or lower string 9 to C, where would a good place for it to go?

Has anyone gone down this road before?

[Robert Miller]

I'm missing the boat. If we're looking for a boo wah pedal against a B6th tuning (Which is approximately where you're at with your Ds raised), we'd need G#, D#, G#, C, D#, F#, G#, B, D# (C# or higher b7) depending on your flavor. So, G7#9 (#11).

Now, if you're intending to use it as a B7#9, which is what the second string D is hinting at (D is #9 of your B bass note), then you've got the B, F#, B, D#, A (w/P3), D of B7#9...BUT...you have some wicked nonstandard grips to get it and the interposed (D, D# or C, C# you mentioned) is gonna be a challenge to navigate and produce some cringe if you miss. Also, no raking down to the bottom with those in the middle.

If, on the third hand, you're shooting for a boo wah with a C bass, then I'm more loster than I thought because I don't understand the C#.

Am I homing in?

Can you give an idea of what the harmonic goal is?

As to your question about P8 on a knee lever, I have no idea, other than working the new tuning you get with P8 might be a little cumbersome latching on to a knee lever, rather than resting your foot.

[J D Sauser]

I am also not rally sure I understand stand what the question is, but when somebody states that on C6th they don't really know what the do and the "BooWhah" is mentioned, I would start with this:

1- Forget the "BooWhah" or "BahWhoom" effect first.

The MAIN chord generated with that is a Dominant chord (a "7th" chord which is a Major Triad with has a flat 7th as the 4th note) which also has a "minor third" (called the #9th) usually on "top" (high note). It's often called the Hendrix Chord (although Django Reinhardt used the exact same grip as Hendrix did, and even Jerry Byrd had access to in 1937 on his 7-string non-pedal steel loooooong before).

On a standard C6th the 8th string is the root to a minor 7th chord, open Am7th.
The "BooWhah"-pedal raises the 7th string (C) which is Am's minor 3rd a half step to become the MAJOR third (C#). But the C on top (string #3 stays put and thus stays the "minor 3rd" called the #9th in a Dominant chord), so that the C and C# are dissonant almost an Octave apart.

Play strings:
#3 (#9th because it does not get raised),
#5 (b7th),
#7 (raised to M3rd) and
#8 (root)

The typical sound does not call for the 5th degree, but can be found and played off string #6.

The "BooWhah" comes from a root created off the 10th string being dropped a minor 3rd (3 half steps). On a C6th tuning that would be a very low A-note an octave lower than the low A already occurring on string #8.

Some real Jazz steel guitar player even did NOT have the 10th string drop to the low root.

In essence, IF that was the question, you can get that Jazz and Funk sound off ANY minor 7th position by just raising the bottom minor 3rd half but leaving it's top octave repetition put,.

And that's my answer to a question I am not sure we even got,


To me, that pedal comes in very handy in turnarounds moving down the circle of 4th of Dominants in half steps and on your setup it's the gateway to quartal harmony (adding another change). In both cases and also as plain Dom7#9th, I couldn't care less about the "BooWhah" end of it.

And here is yet another term for that "BooWhah"-effect I got from Maurice Anderson: The "Splatt"-peddle, term which should tell us how much he thought of that
Let put it this way... it was a thing in the late 60's thru 70's and ever since... it's maybe a bit of a dated sound... just like bell bottom pants for men. Those years ain't coming back, I'm afraid.

... J-D.

[Robert Miller]

The Splat !!! Pedal. I was trying so hard to remember that the other day, it was eating me up. I kept coming up with Hold It and that wasn't what I was looking for. Thanks for the trip down memory lane JD...and the much more useful explanation of use of the 7#9.

I've been tempted to do the shift down to the Chalker low A thing to "de-splat" the change, but haven't quite had the guts to do the surgery (brain and steel).

[Ian Worley]

The OP didn't asked about the boo-wah part of P8, he doesn't have those low strings. I believe he is just asking about how to add the B>C change somewhere within his current 10 string E9 copedent in a way that it doesn't interfere egregiously with his other changes in normal situations. If so, and assuming you have an all-pull guitar that you can split-tune notes on, probably the simplest and most functional solution would be to include the B>A# change on string 10 also, and split it with the B pedal for the C note.

[Robert Miller]

Makes great sense to me. Every time I think of pedal 8 I think of that fat 7#9 sound like Bluemmons and I just latched onto trying to duplicate that sound. Hopefully, you've solved the riddle.

[Mike Preuss]

Ian hit the nail on the head. Thanks.

[Ian Worley]

Oops, I meant A pedal, your P2. I said split with B pedal, but you knew what I meant

[Dennis Detweiler]

I'd just simplify the open 10 string tuning and probably forget about anything with the Boo-Wah pedal and incorporate the first 10 strings of the E9/B6 tuning. A G# on the bottom. You'd have 3 floor pedals on the B6 tuning and build a personal copedent from there. Better yet, get a 12 string.

[J D Sauser]

The OP didn't asked about the boo-wah part of P8, he doesn't have those low strings. I believe he is just asking about how to add the B>C change somewhere within his current 10 string E9 copedent in a way that it doesn't interfere egregiously with his other changes in normal situations. If so, and assuming you have an all-pull guitar that you can split-tune notes on, probably the simplest and most functional solution would be to include the B>A# change on string 10 also, and split it with the B pedal for the C note.

So the question is how do I get that "Hendrix Chord"-sound on E9th?

Theory overview:
Any M6th chord, creates a full relative minor 7th.
Raise the bottom root only of the M6th chord half, and you raised the bottom minor 3rd of the relative minor up to Major 3rd.
In other words, locate a good m7th chord position where you have octaves of the m3rd and raise the bottom one only half.
As long you can keep the top octave put.... you got a Dom7 with a minor third on top => #9th, et voilà, as the French say.

I've quit E9th over 20 years ago... so, I am going out on a limb, so take below suggestions with a grain of salt, please.

E9th produces several 6th chords, the most C6th-like would be by lowering the E's half and then add a B to C raise of the 10th string on some lever or stagger the A-pedal pull so that it first engages the 10th string and half-stops against the top B-string to then go to C# (a bit of a undesirable clutter on a pedal which is used smooth a lot).
The A&B pedal down gives you an A6th/F#m7... so, you would have to create a WHOLE tone raise lever on the lower A note (raised from G# to A) to raise it further to A#/Bb and you would have raised the F#m7's m3rd to Major 3rd and thus created the the F#7#9 because the top note stayed put.

You could look at turning the E7the (D string being the b7th) and raise only the bottom E half but the inversion would not give you "THAT" expected/desired sound.

I don't have an E9th guitar anymore... but I suspect there will be other positions which may open a opportunity to add such a change. It would indeed be a cool sound to have available even in (modern) "Country", but keep in mind that it requires 4 notes to be played to get "that" sound.

... J-D.

[Dale Rottacker]

My head is THROBBING right now, but I'm gonna keep reading this theory stuff till some of it finds a crack in my thick skull and breaks through. Don't give up Dale, DON'T GIVE UP!!!

[J D Sauser]

My head is THROBBING right now, but I'm gonna keep reading this theory stuff till some of it finds a crack in my thick skull and breaks through. Don't give up Dale, DON'T GIVE UP!!!

Amazon still has some Black Friday specials on Jackhammers available, Dale! Free shipping too to sweeten the deal!

... J-D

[Dale Rottacker]

My head is THROBBING right now, but I'm gonna keep reading this theory stuff till some of it finds a crack in my thick skull and breaks through. Don't give up Dale, DON'T GIVE UP!!!

Amazon still has some Black Friday specials on Jackhammers available, Dale! Free shipping too to sweeten the deal!

... J-D

You’re a good friend JD, I’m looking into it now… maybe gonna try Harbor Freight too.

[Mike Preuss]

From a separate thread:

You could have P8 raise string 7 only as it's the most used element of that change. The full boo-wah is a bit niche.

Also P4 is pretty much obsolete, and BE never mentions it in his Basic C6 course. So,

P5 - 2 pulls
P6 - 2 pulls
P7 - 2 pulls
P8 - 1 pull
RKL - 1 pull

Total 8

Ok sorry for all the confusing headaches!

I do not want a "boowah"

"P8 raise string 7 only as it's the most used element of that change."

That's all I am looking for. In fact that statement from the other Ian was partially responsible for my current E9 copedent.

Splitting strings 5+10 to get C makes perfect sense, and I didn't even consider it since I abandoned split tuned notes a few years back when I went push pull. I have an all pull and will reconsider that choice.

When I get the chance I'm going to add string 10 B-C to my traditional RKR, and see what happens.

I've tried D13 and extended E9. I've owned a d10. Single neck E9 is my jam for better or worse!